Eden's insurrection,Sass
by: safford13
1/9/00 4:09 pm
Msg: 18 of 30
The genesis story contains the the view of Adam and Eve being
sinless. Why? I'm convinced it was because they were not involved in "free
will" which I am convinced is incorrectly known. Will as I understand
it, is appropriated,actually stolen. This is the nature of the rebellion
and the expulsion from the garden.
The bible's prose is lean,a detailed explanation of God's intents
and purposes were not revealed just that what was done was unacceptable
and the earth paradise was ended.
Perhaps ...
by: B_eamer (5/M/Calif.)
1/9/00 9:44 pm
Msg: 19 of 30
I haven't really spent the time before studying weather a rock
had a consciousness.
Egads. You just may have cured me of ever picking up a stone and
seeing how many times I can get it to skip.
If rock has a consciousness, then so do sand and mortar and salt
and pepper ... ok, illumination time here.
Ah life. Just as I am in a state of awarness and reflection, in
walks my son wanting to know if I will play him a game of Mortal Kombat.
He
has just learned how to break ones leg with one particular guy
and wants to try it out on me. Thank you, but no, I tell him. Trying to
remanin at calm right this moment and not have the thought of
breaking a large limb of the human body going through my mind.
Well, it was nice while it lasted. Perhaps a quiet please sign
in the future.
This is an interesting point and I shall have to get back to you
on this.
Mulling it over...
by: sassafraswilds (50/F/Arkansas)
1/14/00 2:39 pm
Msg: 20 of 30
...is what I've been up to these last few days. So much food
for thought.
As to your musings , dear Beamer, I think stones ''enjoy'' being
skipped across ponds and, with four kids age 13 and down, I know just what
you mean about the potential value of posting a ''quiet please'' sign on
my office door. But, I ain't done it and I probably won't. The
little darlings would just ignore it anyway and I'd end up with
another useless thing to dust.
However, about kids (or anyone) playing games like Mortal Kombat,
I have rather strong opinions which are implemented as absolute
rules in our homestead under the authority of my homemaker dictatorship.
Those rules go something like this:
If a ''game'' is about doing something to something that you would
NOT want done to you, it is not really a ''game'' and therefore you will
NOT do it. And, I wouldn't insert this comment into this discussion
except that, to me, the foundation of my adamant adhesion to this
criteria relates back to my base-line understandings about what
is being communicated through the story of Genesis.
Now, I'll come back to pick up this tread in a moment, but in
order to accomplish that I've got to tie in some other thoughts about
Safford's comments first:
For the last several days, I've taken a long look at your perspective
about ''will'' having been ''appropriated'' or ''stolen.'' Also, your
assessment that ''the bible's prose is lean'' and thus ''a detailed
explanation of God's intents and purposes were not revealed...''' Now,
on the one hand, I must agree with you. Nothing in the Bible is absolutely
cut and dried. Every phrase contains a multitude of nuance and inflection.
At the literal level, many of the admonitions and commandments found in
scripture seem to completely contradict themselves.
Yet I seem to see a message within all the stories that has continuity
throughout all the scripture I've ever read. And, though I make no
claim to be any kind of expert, I've read enough to satisfy myself
that what I'm seeing is neither conjecture nor coincidence, but holds some
inkling of profound truth.
This perspective of mine starts from the ''ground zero'' awareness
that the message of the stories contained in scripture is not in any way
about anything ''material.'' All of scripture, as I understand
it, is strictly about the (invisible) spiritual realm.
So for example, in Genesis 1:3, when God says ''Let there be light''
--- because ''light'' in the literal sense is a manifestation of energy
in a
material form and I am convinced that scripture, at base line,
only addresses subjects that are ''spiritual," ''invisible,'' and entirely
non-material (such as consciousness, free-will, creativity, wisdom,
and so on) --- I get an entirely different meaning from Genesis 1:3 than
is usually understood. I read God's message to be saying ''Let
there be awareness.''
(continued in next post...)
(continued from previous post)
by: sassafraswilds (50/F/Arkansas)
1/14/00 2:41 pm
Msg: 21 of 30
Now, building on this foundation I'll backtrack a bit. Because of my
perspective about the message outlined in Genesis, I believe it is
harmful to us to hold ''graven images'' (like the thought of
breaking a large limb of the human body) in our mind's eye. I believe that
in the
act of so doing, we contribute enlivening creative energy to the potential
for the manifestation of the envisioned material act..
Also, because of the way I have come to understand this ''inherent''
scriptural message, I am convinced that God created us ''thinkers'' with
the intention that we were to have free-will. But at the same
time, because of the very nature of free-will, it was impossible for God
to
''give'' this power to us. We had to ''appropriate'' it. This
was part of God's plan. But we did not ''steal'' it because it was intended
for us
from the start.
Now, I know that my attitudes and beliefs on this are about half-a-bubble-off-mainstream-plumb,
and that's okay with me. I'm
accustomed to being called weird and actually enjoy it sometimes, but
that is not what's important here.
What does matter is that I believe we are, all of us, seeking a way
to co-create an earth paradise where-in everyone is cared for, nurtured,
comfortable, and fundamentally happy about the course of their individual
lives. More importantly, I am absolutely convinced that God
created us expressly to co-create this manifestation. And, I believe
that in having this conversation we make a mighty contribution to the
actualization of these heavenly qualities in the (material) here-and-now.
Hugs :-)
Sassafras ...
by: B_eamer (5/M/Calif.)
1/15/00 8:35 am
Msg: 22 of 30
My parental control dosen't allow for such games either. My son borrowed
the game from a neighbor, apparently forgetting my despise of such brutality
being available for their "enjoyment". That is one reason why I was so
blown out of the water by his asking such a question.
His memeory was quickly refreshed, the game returned, and harmony (such
as it is) returned to the Beamer household.
My cousin was allowed to watch all of the Friday the 13th movies, as
well as other slasher movies. This while he was 9, 10 years of age. I
so wanted to take him to the emergency room of the hospital I was working
in at the time so he could see the actual results of someone
being stabbed or injured. My wife would never allow me to pull this
off. Seeing the gore and blood and suffering first hand would have
made quite the impression on him, I'm sure. Luckily, he has grown up
to be quite a responsible young man.
You being a half bubble off mainstream, try telling some one that you
regularly communicate with your spirit guide. I look forward to the
day when we will be mainstream and the "others" will be the "wierd"
ones.
Thank you for the great posting and for staying on with our "weirdness".
Namaste.
Sassafraswilds
by: safford13
1/16/00 3:30 pm
Msg: 23 of 30
I'm given to think along more stringent lines than you. Yet,in the
ending of your dialogue I find myself agreeing with your thoughts.
What Adam and Eve did in the garden was insurrection, I'm convinced.
Their very lives were altered,even to an ending. Until,these events-
there was no such thing as biological death. So in esscence, Adam and Eve
earned a death sentence. The very ground was cursed and became adversarial.
Thorns and briars were non-existent. All manner of scourges were formed
as an outgrowth of this one act.
Therefore,to me there is nothing free about will. It can be a force
for either good or evil,one need only remember- that one is responsible
in
consequence, for all acts.
As for what was intended,I don't know.
What I am clear and cognizant of is actions and accountabilities.
Still like you,I believe that those who fervently seek righteousness,can
participate in the miraculous.
Gee, Saff ...
by: windsong_1950 (49/F/SE Michigan)
1/16/00 4:22 pm
Msg: 24 of 30
... we gotta stop meeting like this :-) LOL.
I don't believe we can actually prove historical accounts of anything,
since historians are going to be somewhat biased, no matter how
neutral one would claim to be. It does ultimately boil down to taking
one's word for anything -- or faith.
There's discussion going on elsewhere regarding "absolutism v. relativism".
Sassafras and I both have written essays, and she has penned a transliteration
of Genesis 1&2. I was going to wait, but I think I will go ahead and
post my essay, since it relates directly to your thoughts
...
Thoughts on Creation
In the beginning, which has no beginning, God IS ... not was,
not will be, but the eternal moment of IS-ness.
God, existing solely in the realm of the Absolute, is only Love, and
knows no opposites, no lacks. In this state of Absolute Love, or Eden,
God's beingness is expressed and extended as the Christ Consciousness,
or us, and we are the Child, or the Son of God. And we, along with Jesus
our wise, elder brother, were in the "beginning."
Like the most loving parent that God is, we Children are the beneficiaries
of free will. And as children are sometimes want to do, we have impetulantly
thought that we were more powerful than our Source. In that moment of insanity
(or as the Bible tells of the "fall from Grace",
and as other contemporary literature calls "the Separation"), we the
Child decided to experience the other realm, that of relativity
(physicality). When the Bible says that Adam and Eve realized their
nakedness and made clothes for theselves, I think this is actually when
our Souls began taking on bodies.
It is also my contention that Adam and Eve were not evicted from
Eden by an angry God, but that they willingly chose to go out on their
own and were not condemned for doing so.
Connie Robbins
July 1999
Boy, Sassafras...
by: newhboy
1/17/00 4:04 pm
Msg: 25 of 30
This one got my braincells in REAL motion. I thought and meditated
over this one the whole weekend and I couldn't come-up with
anything. There are a few things I would like to say though....
I don't thing creation is really that far away from science. That science
cannot prove it through scientific method... Well, probably is not to
be proven after all. Let's consider... "There shall be light..." -BIG
BANG!! How can somebody create anything that fits so perfectly in the order
of things?? Certainly not by accident. Time, Space and Reality, are things
that we can barely measure and understand. We have sliced them in portions
that are meaningful to our perception, but what is that in the Eternity
timeframe?? Scriptures are full of esotheric
meanings and simbols that are hard to decipher.
I don't think that we ever lost or were thrown out of the Garden of
Eden. Just look around you and feel Mother Earth breathe and live.
Look at the beauty surrounding you and let it envelope your senses
and perceptions with its wonderful manifestations of greatness. WE'RE
STILL IN IT!! We have contaminated, polluted and alter it to no end,
but we're still in it and once in a while we get a glimpse of it.
I don't think that Adam and Eve were created as fully functional human
beings, but as SUPER-human!! Almost divine, but somewhere
along the way, their perception of things changed. They became more
physical and "earthbound." It is not that they were punished or
evicted, it's just that their perception changed and that's what we
inherited. The symbols around the event that changed THAT perception is
something I cannot "grasp."
I know this thoughts are not very scientific or esotheric, but
that's the way I "feel" them. It has been a long time since I stopped looking
for
explanations for everything we do and everything we are. Sometimes,
I just love to stay still and feel the whole universe around us evolving
as it should and let it and to descend to that place where everything
is peaceful and safe. I love going to that place where things make sense
without explanations. Too bad I cannot stay there forever.
In Peace
In Ligh
In Love
Newh
Parental controls, stringent lines, and
by: sassafraswilds (50/F/Arkansas)
1/19/00 3:55 pm
Msg: 29 of 30
... historical accounts. What a wonderful mix of topics, and
yet all trace back in some way to our group mythology about Genesis. I'm
excited!!!
First, to Beamer: My kids blow me out of the water by some of their
actions, too. Seems not to matter how (wisely?) I instruct them, they
still want to taste the fruit of learning for themselves. And I know
that scads of young folks subject themselves to ''horror'' as entertainment,
emerging (it seems) unscathed by the experience. Yet to me it seems
that they come out okay ''in spite of'' what they've experienced and I
believe it is my responsibility to (as much as possible) make sure
they come out okay ''because of'' what they've seen, heard, and done.
My thoughts on this were summarized nicely in a pass-along email I recently
received which I'll now take the liberty to share in a slightly
condensed form:
Many parents are hard pressed to explain to their kids why some forms
of ''entertainment'' are simply not acceptable. Especially when the
kids say ''everyone else is doing it'' and ''it's not really all that
bad'' because it's ''just a little bit violent'' (or otherwise offensive)
and besides,
in this day and age, that kind of stuff is ''normal.'' Well, one parent
handled that situation this way:
After listening to the long list of reasons about why it should be okay
for the kids to partake of a notorious kind of entertainment, Dad
baked a batch of brownies and offered them to the kids, explaining
that he'd taken the family's favorite recipe and added a little something
new.
The children asked what it was and the father calmly replied that
he had added a small scoop of dog poop. He quickly assured them,
however, that only a little tiny bit of the offensive material
had been added and that all the other ingredients were gourmet quality.
Also, he
had taken great care to bake the brownies at the precise temperature
for the exact time and was certain they would taste superb.
When the children refused to eat the brownies, the father praised
them, saying he was glad they had not been deceived into believing that
just a little bit of ''offensive material'' didn't matter. He
told them he was proud that they had recognized that just a tiny amount
of
''something bad'' could ruin a whole batch of ''something good.''
He further explained that, had they fallen victim to the deception,
they would have unwittingly tainted their personal standards of quality
and
this, in turn, would have a marked effect on their overall well-being
and health.
Now tying this in to our aggregate Genesis mythology, I believe
we all have, albeit unwittingly, ingested poop-laced brownies from time
to
time. <yuck> Yet at the same time, I am convinced that we
have the ever-present opportunity to purge this questionable material from
our
system, cleansing ourselves with the purity of truth. But of
course, in order to do this, we must first discover truth. And, according
to
scripture, truth is found through compacted agreement, wherever
two or three witnesses come together in accord. (continued in next post)
(continued from previous post)
by: sassafraswilds (50/F/Arkansas)
1/19/00 3:59 pm
Msg: 30 of 30
Yet taken literally, this scriptural precedent indicates that
truth wears many faces. If we follow it to the letter, for example, we
could take the population of the world, divide that number by 3, and we'd
have a general idea about how many possible ''truths'' there are on any
given subject. That's a lot of truth.
But scripture also tells us that truth is ''written in our heart.''
And, it has been my experience that when we look at truth with our heart
we are all very much in agreement about certain fundamental things. And,
I believe that as we articulate these bubbles of sacred truth (about things
like personal communication with spirit guides, being more or less stringent
than others, our personal definition of righteousness, and living a life
of faith) we discover the multifaceted ways in which we are already ''one.''
Just as with you and I, Safford. It is evident to me that we are
very much in agreement on many truths. I think the difference has to do
more with the words we choose to express ourselves than with the substance
those words represent.
For example, regarding Adam's and Eve's ''transgression'' you
said: ''Adam and Eve earned a death sentence. The very ground was cursed
and became adversarial. Thorns and briars were non-existent. All manner
of scourges were formed as an outgrowth of this one act. Therefore, to
me there is nothing free about will. It can be a force for either good
or evil....'' And, as to the substance of what you are expressing I totally
agree with you. However, I would express it this way:
Adam and Eve earned the opportunity to experience death and to
choose between death and life. At the moment Adam and Eve ''took control''
of this ''choosing'' a system of checks and balances was set into motion
which made it impossible for them to NOT be responsible for their own actions.
From that point forward, each and every of their (chosen) actions came
at a ''cost.'' So, the term ''free-will'' is, in a sense, a misnomer because
the acquisition (by appropriation) of ''will'' was not ''free.'' Every
act of ''will'' comes at a price.
To me, however, in knowing this ''truth'' there is the opportunity
to cultivate wisdom. For example, when I go to the market I think about
what I would like to purchase. Then, when I discover the cost of a desired
item, I reason whether it is a price I am willing to pay and I
make a choice.
When we look at our actions --- all of our actions --- with this
same forethought, logic, pragmatism and scrutiny and make reasoned choices
about what we will do or not, then as we grow in wisdom (through a process
of edification by trial and error) we ''purchase'' a miraculously blessed
and phenomenally rewarding (eternal) life.
Now, I've really gotten long-winded here and there's a lot more
I'd like to say, especially on the topic of faith and SUPER-humans raised
by Windsong and Newh. But for the moment, that will have to wait. However,
please find a bushel of big warm fuzzy hugs attached for each of you, along
with special thanks to Sucarha, and Marietta for sharing your heart-felt
thoughts.
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